I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR Quiz
from September 2002. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.

Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is "BNA
DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME arc is
almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an extremely sloppy
fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify TANDS would be to cross
the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Roy Smith wrote:

> I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR Quiz
> from September 2002. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.
>
> Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is "BNA
> DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME arc is
> almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an extremely sloppy
> fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify TANDS would be to cross
> the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.

Roy,

I gotta agree with you here. In practice, I would ignore LVT, and
identify TANDS with BNA and DME. If I didn't have a DME, then I would
use BNA and LVT radials. Of course, in *real* reality, I would use GPS
in OBS mode, and plot the inbound leg of the hold.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR Quiz
> from September 2002. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.
>
> Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is "BNA
> DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME arc is
> almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an extremely sloppy
> fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify TANDS would be to
> cross
> the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.
>
> Is there something I'm missing here?
>

No, IFRR made a boo-boo.

Roy Smith > wrote in
:

> I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR
> Quiz from September 2002. See
> http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.
>
> Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is
> "BNA DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME
> arc is almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an
> extremely sloppy fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify
> TANDS would be to cross the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA
> R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.
>
> Is there something I'm missing here?

TANDS, according to the chart, is fixed by the BNA 016 radial and the LVT
270 radial, and you can also use just 24.7 DME on the BNA 016 radial.
The written answer may be a little opaque, but it's more or less correct,
in that you can use either/or.

The R-106 will put you somewhere you shouldn't be, though. ;-)

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

Roy Smith wrote:

> I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR Quiz
> from September 2002. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.
>
> Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is "BNA
> DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME arc is
> almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an extremely sloppy
> fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify TANDS would be to cross
> the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.
>
> Is there something I'm missing here?

Seems to me you're missing something. ;-)

The sloppy tanget to the BNA DME would exist only if you were flying along the
LVT 270 radial. But, you're not. In the context of that approach chart you
flew the missed approach northbound on the BNA 016 radial until either BNA 24.7
DME or until crossing the LVT 270 radial northbound tracking BNA 016 radial.
Then, you enter the hold flying on-course southbound on the BNA 016 back to
TANDS.

So, what's sloppy about the BNA 24.7 DME fix when holding north of TANDS on the
BNA 016 radial (i.e., as the hold is charted)?

TANDS is authorized only for use along V-49, which is the BNA 016 radial at
that location. It is not authorized for flight along the LVT 270 radial unless
ATC were to give you an impromtu clearance to track the LVT 270 radial.

It's a long ways from LVT to TANDS (67.4 miles) so that is a pretty sloppy fix,
compared to the BNA R-016/24.7 DME. Also, according to the NACO L-21 Lo En
Route Chart, the MRA is 3,000, which makes it a pretty marginal fix using the
LVT 270 radial. They had to chart it that way, though, to keep the procedure
from requiring DME.

Stan Gosnell wrote:

> Roy Smith > wrote in
> :
>
> > I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR
> > Quiz from September 2002. See
> > http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.
> >
> > Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is
> > "BNA DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME
> > arc is almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an
> > extremely sloppy fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify
> > TANDS would be to cross the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA
> > R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.
> >
> > Is there something I'm missing here?
>
> TANDS, according to the chart, is fixed by the BNA 016 radial and the LVT
> 270 radial, and you can also use just 24.7 DME on the BNA 016 radial.
> The written answer may be a little opaque, but it's more or less correct,
> in that you can use either/or.
>
> The R-106 will put you somewhere you shouldn't be, though. ;-)
>

Especially when using the DNA 24.7 DME. ;-)

>
>
> I gotta agree with you here. In practice, I would ignore LVT, and
> identify TANDS with BNA and DME. If I didn't have a DME, then I would
> use BNA and LVT radials. Of course, in *real* reality, I would use GPS
> in OBS mode, and plot the inbound leg of the hold.

The context of the question in IFRR presumes you are flying the missed approach
using conventional ground-based nav.

If you had a GPS, though, and had the ILS approach loaded from the database,
after the MAP you would have to use the flight-plan (TF leg) mode of the GPS
until TANDS, then the OBS mode at TANDS to hold.

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:44:02 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:

>I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR Quiz
>from September 2002. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.
>
>Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is "BNA
>DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME arc is
>almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an extremely sloppy
>fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify TANDS would be to cross
>the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.
>
>Is there something I'm missing here?

Greetings,

I don't see a DME arc on this procedure? If you're referring to the
'range rings', they just show that those portions of the plate outside
the 10 DME ring are not necessarily to-scale, they're not DME arcs.

As for TANDS, I believe you are correct in that it can be identified
using either BNA R106, 24.7DME, or the intersection of BNA R106 and
the Livingston R270, either of which is a pretty well defined point in
space.

Luck!
P

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 06:24:08 -0500, Peter Clark
> wrote:

>As for TANDS, I believe you are correct in that it can be identified
>using either BNA R106, 24.7DME, or the intersection of BNA R106 and
>the Livingston R270, either of which is a pretty well defined point in
>space.

augh. subst R016 for R106. Teach me to copy information from the
previous post ;)

wrote:
> Roy Smith wrote:
>
> > I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR
Quiz
> > from September 2002. See
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.
[snip]

> The sloppy tanget to the BNA DME would exist only if you were flying
along the
> LVT 270 radial. But, you're not. In the context of that approach
chart you
> flew the missed approach northbound on the BNA 016 radial until
either BNA
> 24.7 DME or until crossing the LVT 270 radial northbound tracking BNA
016
> radial.
> Then, you enter the hold flying on-course southbound on the BNA 016
back to
> TANDS.

Hi. simulator pilot that enjoys flying IFR procedures here. How is this
hold entered? As I understand, BNA R-016 past BNA 24.7 DME (or LVT 270
radial), then a 180 degree turn southbound until reaching TANDS again,
and then left standard turn to 016? Any restrictions for the
southbound turn after passing TANDS the first time?

TIA,
Mike

wrote in news:1112058480.280994.48230
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Hi. simulator pilot that enjoys flying IFR procedures here. How is this
> hold entered? As I understand, BNA R-016 past BNA 24.7 DME (or LVT 270
> radial), then a 180 degree turn southbound until reaching TANDS again,
> and then left standard turn to 016? Any restrictions for the
> southbound turn after passing TANDS the first time?

Turn to the holding side, to insure you don't fly outside protected
airspace. This would be a parallel entry, thus a right turn, to a
heading to intercept the 016 radial inbound to TANDS. In practice, you
can intercept the 016 anywhere prior to or at TANDS, then hold as
published, and if you don't quite intercept the radial prior to TANDS,
then just turn outbound abeam it.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

> wrote in message ups.com...
> wrote:
>> Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>> > I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR
> Quiz
>> > from September 2002. See
> http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.
> [snip]
>
>> The sloppy tanget to the BNA DME would exist only if you were flying
> along the
>> LVT 270 radial. But, you're not. In the context of that approach
> chart you
>> flew the missed approach northbound on the BNA 016 radial until
> either BNA
>> 24.7 DME or until crossing the LVT 270 radial northbound tracking BNA
> 016
>> radial.
>> Then, you enter the hold flying on-course southbound on the BNA 016
> back to
>> TANDS.
>
> Hi. simulator pilot that enjoys flying IFR procedures here. How is this
> hold entered? As I understand, BNA R-016 past BNA 24.7 DME (or LVT 270
> radial), then a 180 degree turn southbound until reaching TANDS again,
> and then left standard turn to 016? Any restrictions for the
> southbound turn after passing TANDS the first time?
>

No, a teardrop entry. BNA R016 past BNA 24.7 DME, then right turn 30 degrees to 046. Fly one minute, turn
left , twist OBS to 196, and continue your turn to intercept 196 inbound.

Not sure how Stan came up with a parallel entry for this (maybe from your description he thought you were
coming from the east or something).

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

I'm pretty new at this, just took my checkride on Saturday, but it looks to
me like you are right on the line between parallel and teardrop.

Here's my question. When either parallel or teardrop could be used, is there
a preference for one over the other? You could argue that teardrop is
preferred because it is more likely to keep you on the protected side, so
when it is a toss up. that's the way you should go, but I'm wondering if
there are any other considerations.

Brad


"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
ups.com...
> > wrote:
> >> Roy Smith wrote:
> >>
> >> > I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR
> > Quiz
> >> > from September 2002. See
> > http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.
> > [snip]
> >
> >> The sloppy tanget to the BNA DME would exist only if you were flying
> > along the
> >> LVT 270 radial. But, you're not. In the context of that approach
> > chart you
> >> flew the missed approach northbound on the BNA 016 radial until
> > either BNA
> >> 24.7 DME or until crossing the LVT 270 radial northbound tracking BNA
> > 016
> >> radial.
> >> Then, you enter the hold flying on-course southbound on the BNA 016
> > back to
> >> TANDS.
> >
> > Hi. simulator pilot that enjoys flying IFR procedures here. How is this
> > hold entered? As I understand, BNA R-016 past BNA 24.7 DME (or LVT 270
> > radial), then a 180 degree turn southbound until reaching TANDS again,
> > and then left standard turn to 016? Any restrictions for the
> > southbound turn after passing TANDS the first time?
> >
>
> No, a teardrop entry. BNA R016 past BNA 24.7 DME, then right turn 30
degrees to 046. Fly one minute, turn
> left , twist OBS to 196, and continue your turn to intercept 196 inbound.
>
> Not sure how Stan came up with a parallel entry for this (maybe from your
description he thought you were
> coming from the east or something).
>
> Cheers,
> John Clonts
> Temple, Texas
> N7NZ
>
>

"Brad Salai" > wrote in
:

> I'm pretty new at this, just took my checkride on Saturday, but it
> looks to me like you are right on the line between parallel and
> teardrop.
>
> Here's my question. When either parallel or teardrop could be used, is
> there a preference for one over the other? You could argue that
> teardrop is preferred because it is more likely to keep you on the
> protected side, so when it is a toss up. that's the way you should go,
> but I'm wondering if there are any other considerations.

If you're doing it for yourself, in the real world, either will work, as
long as you stay on the protected side. For checkride purposes, some
examiners can be very picky, and want to see exactly the recommended
entry, which means the least turn outbound, usually. It also depends on
the level of the checkride as to how picky the examiner may be. An ATP
ride is different from a PPL ride.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

Stan Gosnell > wrote:
> If you're doing it for yourself, in the real world, either will work, as
> long as you stay on the protected side. For checkride purposes, some
> examiners can be very picky, and want to see exactly the recommended
> entry, which means the least turn outbound, usually.

In theory, the examiner is supposed to stick to the PTS. However, we
all know that getting into a ****ing contest with an examiner is a
no-win situation.

> It also depends on the level of the checkride as to how picky the
> examiner may be. An ATP ride is different from a PPL ride.

I suspect there is actually some logic to this. Most private pilots
are going to be flying things that hold at 90 or maybe 120 kts (sure,
some of us are flying 170 kt Bonanzas or Mooneys, but hopefully
they're not holding at cruise speed). The turn radii at those speeds
is small enough that any old entry will keep you within the protected
area. An ATP is more likely to be flying something that's going to
hold at 200 kts and may be making less than standard rate turns.
Under those conditions, making the best entry becomes more of an
issue.

On 29 Mar 2005 19:07:25 GMT, Stan Gosnell > wrote:

>If you're doing it for yourself, in the real world, either will work, as
>long as you stay on the protected side. For checkride purposes, some
>examiners can be very picky, and want to see exactly the recommended
>entry, which means the least turn outbound, usually


the practical test standards only require that the applicant remain in
holding airspace, "picky" examiners notwithstanding.

No "recommended entry" required.

On 29 Mar 2005 14:26:40 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote:

>In theory, the examiner is supposed to stick to the PTS. However, we
>all know that getting into a ****ing contest with an examiner is a
>no-win situation.


then don't get into a ****ing contest.

Simply get the facts together and present your case to the proper
authorities. Examiners don't get an automatic win.

An even better option is to get it straight before the test starts.

(Roy Smith) wrote in :

> I suspect there is actually some logic to this. Most private pilots
> are going to be flying things that hold at 90 or maybe 120 kts (sure,
> some of us are flying 170 kt Bonanzas or Mooneys, but hopefully
> they're not holding at cruise speed). The turn radii at those speeds
> is small enough that any old entry will keep you within the protected
> area. An ATP is more likely to be flying something that's going to
> hold at 200 kts and may be making less than standard rate turns.
> Under those conditions, making the best entry becomes more of an
> issue.

Well, I fly a helicopter that can, if I need it to, turn well inside a
C150, and hold at 60 or 70 kts. But I still had to use the recommended
entries. And you're right, there is real world and there is checkride,
and only a fool argues with the examiner about these things.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin